lilian_cho ([info]lilian_cho) wrote,
@ 2008-04-01 23:23:00
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Entry tags:chinese, fandom, fanfiction, japanese, lj, lytdybr, theories, to-do

On the Attraction of Boys' Love and Androgyny
Originally posted @ IJ as part of Meta-Friday on March 20, 2008.

Disclaimer: This is my own observations on androgyny and the Japanese genre of Boys' Love.
I'm a Japanophile and have a few Japanese friends in rl, but I'm not Japanese. Just to let you know.
Wanky comments will be deleted =P

Plug at will. Am curious about what other people think.



This post originated as two comments in response to [info]flyingskull’s comment on the Boys' Love genre.


Compared to Japan, the United States is a "moral" country. In Japan you can see businessmen ("salaryman") on the underground train reading hentai (pornographic) manga on rape, chan, etc. Even the shoujo manga (comicbook targeted to young girls) is quite smutty nowadays. In the United States, those smutty shoujo manga would earn at least an R rating.

What the Western world know as "yaoi" or "shounen-ai" is called "Boy's Love" ("Boisu Rabu") in Japan. This is Japanese schoolgirls and housewives' wank material naughty fantasy. Boys' Love is written by women for young girls and women. As such, realism is not a concern here.

A huge segment of the FanFiction.net population is influenced by Boys' Love. So if you want to claw your eyes out in horror as Draco in a pink apron cheerfully offers his "back virginity" to dominatrix uber-possessive Harry, now you know which cultural phenomenon to blame =P

Boys' Love ranges from the sweet toothachy kind to the violent kink-filled BDSM kind that you now and then have the utter luck misfortune to pick up.


Sweet Boys' Love (usually labeled "shounen-ai" by Western fans)

The sweet kind is highly unrealistic and portrays the bottom as, well, "the girl." Readers are not concerned about how gay sex works in real life; this is all about teh pretteh and fulfilling their romance quota. Consequently, there's no lubricant, no condom--a lot of times they don't even have penises. (Okay, they do, but it's often blurred out in sparkly bubbles)

That's why the leather crop-toting Harry can slide in and nullify Draco's "back virginity" in one sentence. Peppered with liberal application of "MINE" and "omgyours!" of course.

Boys' Love writers for the most part consider real gay culture irrelevant. They automatically assign the taller boy/man as "seme" (lit. "attack," the top). This is supposedly for aesthetic reasons. Perhaps it has something to do with how taller people exude more intimidation authority than shorter people.

There's been a movement toward realism in Boys' Love, sexual-practices-wise. However, ultimately the manga is there to make the female reader identify with the "uke" (lit. "receive," the bottom), who is almost always more feminine. About 90% of any Boys' Love you pick will be told from the bottom's point of view.

* To reiterate: Boys' Love refer to top and bottom as "seme" and "uke." The word "seme" is derived from the verb "semeru" which means "to attack." The word "uke" is derived from the verb "ukeru" which means "to receive." Trivia: the Japanese word for "receptionist" is "uketsuke."


Explicit Boys' Love (usually labeled "yaoi" by Western fans)

Then there's the ones filled with kinks that you've never even thought of (Yes, HP fandom, there are kinks that you have yet to encounter in fanfic, believe it or not). BDSM, orgies, public humiliation, bestiality, bloodplay, mindfuckery, tentacles, guro, insert-random-object-into-random-orifice, etc. etc.

This is basically hardcore NC-17 PWP filled with squicky kinks. Not much comment on that because I always stop reading whenever I get squicked.


The Attraction of Androgyny



*points to icon* Yes, that's a boy. A 20 y.o. young man, actually.

For some reason, girly boys and boyish girls are famous in Japan and Korea (okay okay in some other parts of Asia too, but not as much as in Japan and Korea). The girls do not necessarily want those androgynous boys to be their boyfriends, but they still squeal over them.

Ogling Looking at an androgynous person, you see both masculine and feminine aspects embodied in a single person. I find this blending of aspects intriguing, at least in a pop star/idol. I would not classify androgynous types as handsome or beautiful, but I do enjoy looking at them.

My sole theory on androgyny so far: the attraction of androgynous features has something to do with cuteness and children. You look at an androgynous person, and you see all these "would-be"s--all these potentials contained in that one body. To me it's like looking at a child and thinking, "She'll be very beautiful when she grows up, and all the boys will fall all over her." It's a wistful response to the fleetingness of youth. In your mind, you think, "In a year or so his voice would break, he'd grow pimples, and he wouldn't have those smooth rosy cheeks anymore."

venturous' comment @ IJ reminded me that this attraction to androgyny is by no means new.

Several Chinese gods are _both_ male and female. In one version, Mother Goddess Guan Yim started out as a fisherman. Once you achieve perfection/god status, you embody both male and female, yin and yang.

This blurring of gender lines have gone both ways for centuries (possibly millenia, I'm not that well-versed with Chinese history).
In Japan, there's Takarazuka (all-women theater troupe) and Kabuki (males playing both male and female roles). In China, there's all-male theater troupes and several instances where women play male roles. The most recent one was Madam White Snake, a TV series back in the early 1990s, where a woman plays the human husband of Madam White Snake.

There's something exciting in putting on the opposite gender role. It's like staring at your reflection as a make-up artist works magic on you. Day in and day out, you catch a glimpse in the mirror of what you might look like--and you look on with wonder as your eyes become more arresting, your lips more plump, your skin more lustrous...

It's rare for a girl/young woman to have both a tomboy-ish disposition and a boyish/coltish figure. I sit and walk like a guy, but I was never coltish so I couldn't ever pass as a guy. On the other hand, I know many young women with boyish figures who are very soft-spoken and "lady-like."
(When I was volunteering at the library, I did mistake one girl for a boy until her mother corrected me, to my embarrassment. In my defense, she's ten years old. After that incident, the next time I saw her she was wearing pink ^^;;)

/end rambling




Comments? Theories? =)

Next up (Sometime. When I get around to it.):
- "Why Slash Attracts Women--My History of Encounter with Slash"
- "Manga Art: the romanticizing of violence and Caucasian characters"



(Post a new comment)


[info]eviltaru
2008-04-02 07:39 am UTC (link)
I love it.

true... but for me, i like them coz they are pretty. like my boyfriend <3.

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[info]lilian_cho
2008-04-02 07:41 am UTC (link)
It = the essay, or it = androgyny? ;-)

lol, prettiness is a good enough reason.


When are you coming here anyway? You've bought tickets for Mom and Dad, or?

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[info]spiderstars
2008-04-02 07:50 am UTC (link)
Okay, they do, but it's often blurred out in sparkly bubbles

I ... the fact that this is true, and I know this via experience, only make it funnier. I believe I've mentioned this to you before, but this is why I have a tendency to avoid shounen-ai in manga like the plague; I like my couples more realistic

Anyway, I'd like to see you expand more on the discussion above.

Also, the obsession with gender-bending isn't limited to Asian culture -- I saw a picture of an old statue (either Greek or Roman) depicting a hermaphrodite.

You seem to be putting androgyny in the same boat as the idea of a hermaphrodite and a transvestite. Do you mean to? Do you necessarily feel there is a connection? (I don't, but I don't necessarily think you're wrong if you do)

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androgyny, trans, hermaphrodite
[info]lilian_cho
2008-04-02 08:23 pm UTC (link)
Magical disappearing penises! >=D

X-D

In retrospect I shouldn't have tackled androgyny because I'm still rather clueless why I find it attractive, beyond the androgynous-children analogy...

Ahh, yes. Hermaphrodites. It was...a man and a nymph entwined into one? Can't remember the legend.

You seem to be putting androgyny in the same boat as the idea of a hermaphrodite and a transvestite. Do you mean to?

Mmm, no. I'm even more clueless about hermaphrodites than androgyny.
Transvestites...I only find them attractive when they've undergone hormone therapies ^^;; Like the pretty pretty boys in Thailand lol. With long slim white legs that look smooth all over. *coughs*
So they have to look enough like a girl. Or something. I'm confusing myself.

Do you necessarily feel there is a connection?

Only in that androgynous people make more attractive/successful transvestites? lol

I think it's the manga influence in me again; In manga stories it's explored over and over how a tall, cool girl wants to wear cute frilly clothes but it doesn't suit their personality/style. Or a short, cute boy is forced to wear girly clothes because "It looks so good on you <333"

And then if the tall, cool girl braves herself and tries on make-up and a frilly blouse, she'll stare at herself in the mirror and thinks ";_; I look like an okama/transvestite."
Or the short, cute boy will get frustrated because none of the high school uniform is small enough to fit him darnit!111

Okay I'm not sure if that answers your question ^^;;

By hermaphrodite do you mean people with XXY genes?
And/or those who are genetically male but the doctors decided to turn them female at birth because it's easier to dig a hole than build a pole? >_>

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I'm not saying this properly but...
[info]anyotherknight
2008-04-02 03:00 pm UTC (link)
I'm so glad you wrote this! You've been talking about it for a while, so I was curious to hear your thoughts.

I think part of the appeal behind androgyny in BL is the freeing aspect of it, where one can find men who may look and even act vaguely female, but are still male enough to be excepted from the restrictions placed on those in female gender roles (societally speaking; sexually it's more rare) so the reader can have their "out there," forbidden romance in situations that couldn't happen with a straight couple, perhaps, but the protagonist's androgyny keeps it more "grounded" amongst readers.

Androgyny in general is freeing and fascinating to many of us for a similar reason -- though it's not often seen in BL (which can sometimes lean towards misogynistic and even homophobic) -- it's a step outside our socially prescribed roles, only without repercussions* because how can one be subjected to gender roles if one isn't of any specific gender to begin with? There's also the purity, as you mentioned with the Chinese gods, the balance between two sides that we identify as completely pure -- angels are androgynous in many cases as well, and described as both horrifying and beautiful.

* by repercussions I mean those which could be suffered by persons who defy gender roles while being "easily" identified as of one sex or the other.


Edited at 2008-04-02 03:03 pm UTC

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Re: I'm not saying this properly but...
[info]lilian_cho
2008-04-02 08:34 pm UTC (link)
the freeing aspect of it, where one can find men who may look and even act vaguely female, but are still male enough to be excepted from the restrictions placed on those in female gender roles

haha yeah. I can think of two cute boys right off the bat who act cute & girly, and get away with it because they _are_ cute and girly X-D
(and short. Must not forget short.)
P used to have this whole spiel of "I'm cute and have a babyface and have loong eyelashes. Don't you find me adorable?" -- of course he never came right out and said it but that's totally what he's thinking!
D is so earnest and say the strangest things at the random-est times and always bemoan his lack of girlfriend. And, and, his hair is reminiscent of a Taru (FFXI) =O
*coughs* Su Li was partly inspired by D *coughs*

so the reader can have their "out there," forbidden romance in situations that couldn't happen with a straight couple, perhaps

Ah yes...same-sex boarding schools/dorm FTW \o/

the protagonist's androgyny keeps it more "grounded" amongst readers.

As in, readers can more readily identify with the protagonist, you mean?

it's a step outside our socially prescribed roles, only without repercussions* because how can one be subjected to gender roles if one isn't of any specific gender to begin with?

=D

angels are androgynous in many cases as well, and described as both horrifying and beautiful.

Hmm yeah I can see how androgyny can be horrifying. ...if you dwell too much on it.

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Re: aesthetics
[info]anyotherknight
2008-04-02 08:52 pm UTC (link)
as in, readers can more readily identify with the protagonist, you mean?
Yes, that's exactly it.


XD I meant horrifying more in the sense of an angel's wrath, but yeah, there are certain things that can be creepy.

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Re: aesthetics
[info]lilian_cho
2008-04-02 09:03 pm UTC (link)
Hee, I thought that's what you meant too, but then I started remembering scary transvestite stories X-D

My favorite transvestite story (not scary, except to the guy it happened to):

My brother's friend went to a hair salon, and his hairdresser was this totally hot & pretty chick. So he flirted shamelessly and came on to her the whole time she was cutting his hair. When she was finished, he kissed her and said thank you (no doubt thinking "Boo-yah, I'm so smooth!")

And she answered, "My pleasure." In a bass voice.

X-D

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Re: aesthetics
[info]anyotherknight
2008-04-02 11:00 pm UTC (link)
That's pretty awesome. It's funny, though, because most of the trans people I know are really out to avoid confusion (or possible persecution) and usually mention it if they get into a situation like that. XD

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Re: aesthetics
[info]lilian_cho
2008-04-02 11:05 pm UTC (link)
lol, she probably wanted to teach him a lesson or smth X-D

Or she wants to traumatize the hetero guy for life MWAHAHAHA.

The view of trans prostitutes is kinda weird where I come from. If you have sex with a trans prostitute, it doesn't make you gay. Dunno. Strange. It's like...the gender is more important than the sex. Or smth.

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Re: aesthetics
[info]anyotherknight
2008-04-02 11:27 pm UTC (link)
Hmm. It's weird but I've always sort of thought that if you love someone their gender shouldn't matter, but at the same time saying things like "this doesn't make you gay" seems a little insecure. It bleeds into people being "someone"sexual (Draco isn't gay, he's Harry-sexual), which just feels a little objectifying. Dehumanizing, even? You could put a romantic spin on it, I guess, but in my mind the first instance is that A loves B and neither of them care what people say either way, and the second is A loves B but that's okay and definitely not gay because A isn't really gay since A hasn't been with anyone of their own gender before that.


That's one thing that bothers me about this perceived androgyny/freedom in BL: people can take it too far and we get into a situation that's similar to the common Western view that many lesbians are "gay until the penis comes." People are too insecure to view their idols/characters as available because that would imply competition, and you can't compete against someone of another gender (in this line of thinking) because it's all apples and oranges. Thus, if another person came along (say, the fan) that person wouldn't be gay/bi anymore (would never have been in the first place) and would be available for all the Mary Sue fantasies in the fan's mind.

I've gotten on a bit of a tangent so here's an example:

Basic yaoi, typical seme/uke typecasting. They're both men, but one of them is effeminate and thus their suitor can't be gay since he's not really sleeping with a man. But that's a pretty discriminative line of thinking, you know? It doesn't speak of respecting and caring for one's partner to the point where orientation doesn't factor in to the equation, it speaks of being so insecure about the relationship that one has to completely degrade their partner in order to save face.

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Re: aesthetics
[info]_lile
2008-04-03 05:30 pm UTC (link)
sorry, XD will interrupt a bit here b/c I think you raise some interesting points.

The label of sexuality is usually based on the gender of attraction. I always thought it was plausible to still maintain the same label of sexuality even if you find one anomaly because it still doesn't change attraction as a whole. whether anyone saying it out of defense or honesty is difficult to determine, but that's why it's so effective as a defense.

Typecasting is unfortunate, but it's a good reflection of human nature. Most of the yaoi fans I see are not particularly interested in reality or actually knowing what being gay is all about. The appeal of yaoi is the way it so effectively offers something different and sensational without being threatening by forcing an unpleasant agenda. It really has nothing to do with respect, and it has more to do with finding a representation of men that benefits the reader in some sort of way.

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Re: aesthetics
[info]anyotherknight
2008-04-03 06:18 pm UTC (link)
You're very right, which is why I'm much more a fan of the Kinsey scale and such. What I'd been trying to get at is that even if the attraction is an anomaly, perhaps orientation should fade into the background and let things be what they are rather than vehemently denying something may or may not be true, but really shouldn't be an ongoing issue.


Escapism plays a huge role in yaoi culture, and I get that, but it just irks me a little that perpetuating hurtful stereotypes is seen as part in package. I'm not asking for writers and authors to change, as it's their prerogative to create what they will, but I do think that the audience could use a major shot of media literacy; it's fine so long as they are aware it's not real life. As you said, many fans aren't interested in knowing the specifics in reality, but it'd be really nice if everyone was aware they exist.

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media literacy
[info]lilian_cho
2008-04-04 12:14 am UTC (link)
People keep on referring to the Kinsey scale. Do you have a link where can I take a test? (I highly doubt it'll tell me something other than 99% straight, but I'm curious all the same)


the audience could use a major shot of media literacy; it's fine so long as they are aware it's not real life.

That's true for just about any media =/
Sadly...probably not gonna happen for most people. I mean, I know people living and working in the U.S. who still think Americans are like the ones they watch in Judge Judy what the @#$%*%?!

People just blindly believe what they see on TV/movies, sheesh. I wonder if it'll take society another five centuries to realize they can't blindly trust what they see (just like they finally learn to not blindly trust everything in print)

I was a bit surprised myself when I came here and discovered that not all American teenagers are disrespectful to their parents, haha.


On the other end of stereotypes, there's also the "everyone is happy and all is well in the world." I think Rowling belongs to that group; She just seems too flippant about the whole gay Grindeldore thing. (She said gays in Wizarding culture = gays in our world. What, you mean like being beaten to death, except by spells? How quaint and magically delightful.)

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Re: media literacy
[info]anyotherknight
2008-04-04 02:22 am UTC (link)
I don't know about online testing, sorry.

I know it's not likely to happen, but widespread rational thought and media literacy is a pipe dream of mine.

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Re: aesthetics
[info]lilian_cho
2008-04-04 12:19 am UTC (link)
Also: I find gay writers in Nifty.org perpetuate more stereotypes than HP slashers, actually =S
And if you never ventured into Nifty.org, DON'T. Let's see, it's like a few of [info]cursescar's H/D fantasy sex, taken to the extreme.

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Re: aesthetics
[info]lilian_cho
2008-04-04 12:27 am UTC (link)
saying things like "this doesn't make you gay" seems a little insecure. It bleeds into people being "someone"sexual (Draco isn't gay, he's Harry-sexual), which just feels a little objectifying. Dehumanizing, even?

Hmm...on one hand I can see how it supposedly make the person "special" because they're an exception...on the other hand I can see your point.

I guess a tame comparison would be: "Yeah, I don't usually dig brunettes, but I'm attracted to you anyway." It only makes the other person paranoid/jealous and dye their hair blond or smth.

the common Western view that many lesbians are "gay until the penis comes."

lol, no I don't know this, do share.

Basic yaoi, typical seme/uke typecasting. They're both men, but one of them is effeminate and thus their suitor can't be gay since he's not really sleeping with a man.

*nods*
I think in the case of people sleeping with transvestite prostitutes, they justify their actions because they're still the one inserting their penis into someone else's orifice.

being so insecure about the relationship that one has to completely degrade their partner in order to save face.

Uh-huh.
Except if the partner has always proudly identified himself as a "queen" or "wife" or whatever. Eh, so complicated. Labels and words change significance depending on who say them D:

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[info]_lile
2008-04-02 03:03 pm UTC (link)
well, aesthetics play a pretty important role. it's sort of like I don't think those who are interested in androgyny would have an attraction to an example of a guy who looked like a girl who wasn't very good looking? the converse is a little more acceptable, probably because of different inherent standards in gender.

and um, it's hard to really pinpoint why a culture values a certain aesthetic over others.

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aesthetics
[info]lilian_cho
2008-04-02 08:44 pm UTC (link)
well, aesthetics play a pretty important role. it's sort of like I don't think those who are interested in androgyny would have an attraction to an example of a guy who looked like a girl who wasn't very good looking?

*nod nod* Aesthetics play an important role no matter your sexual orientation, I think =3 We're just fickle that way.
Hmm, yeah I can see myself tolerating a tomboyish not-so-good-looking girl better than a girly not-so-good-looking guy. But I think that's also partly because I have higher aesthetic standards when it comes to males. (I almost always prefer Korean actors over Korean actresses though. Looks-wise, that is.)

it's hard to really pinpoint why a culture values a certain aesthetic over others.

Well for Chinese people there's the whole "lucky face" v. "unlucky face."

Lucky features include:
- round face (like the moon)
- thick, detached earlobe (like Buddha)
- birthmark/mole in the center of forehead (sign of enlightenment, IIRC)

Unlucky features include:
- high/defined cheekbones (esp. in females, like Lucy Liu. It means you're bitchy or smth.)
- thin, attached earlobe (means you'll die young)
- birthmark/mole near your lips (means you're a gossip)
- birthmark/mole near your eye (means you're a flirt)

On the other hand, big round eyes and fair flawless skin are only about aesthetics instead of luck/fortune for the Chinese. I think.

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Re: aesthetics
[info]_lile
2008-04-03 03:22 pm UTC (link)
some people tried to find what made women appealing to men, and the only overlapping trait that they found was flawless skin

a lot of people believe that face aesthetics is based on face symmetry and the placement of elements that work in a harmonious way.

how prevalent do you think is the unlucky/lucky face thing?

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Re: aesthetics
[info]lilian_cho
2008-04-03 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Hmmm. Most guys don't have flawless skin because they don't take care of it though X-D
But nowadays with the advent of metrosexuals...

Ah yes, preference for symmetrical faces is universal, I think =) Also makes sense in an evolutionary sense--weeds out gene abnormalities or whatever.


It depends on how traditional/superstitious you are. Most Chinese in America would have zero idea re: lucky v. unlucky faces. There's a million and one unspoken rules/superstition, and you sort of absorb it via osmosis from the talk of your elders ^^;;

I remember the high, defined cheekbones thing from the days of Power Rangers OMG. Lucy Liu was the yellow ranger and my Mom remarked, "Nobody would want her as a daughter-in-law. She has high cheekbones--she's mean/bitchy."

The preference for round face + detached earlobe is still going strong in Chinese media. Chinese actresses that are considered "cute" almost always have a round face.

Pointy chin is a no-no; I'm not sure whether that's for aesthetics reason or luck though.

Oh, and freckles = bad. Another reason why Chinese people (not Chinese Americans) look at Lucy Liu and think "What the heck's so pretty about her?"

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Re: aesthetics
[info]_lile
2008-04-03 05:07 pm UTC (link)
oooooooh. that's so interesting. Chinese people are so superstitious. I remember my dad would always pluck out my dog's chin whiskers since he thought it would make her have a better disposition XD

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superstition
[info]lilian_cho
2008-04-04 12:01 am UTC (link)
AHAHAHAH chin whiskers why? X-D

I think just about any culture is superstitious, really. Chinese superstitions just manage to survive more or less intact for longer than others *g*

In America you don't have to look that far back to discover all sorts of superstition.
Just pick up Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn.

In a way people who don't think they're superstitious can be dangerous in that they're so sure that their beliefs are based on "facts." When most of the time they're just agreeing with Fox News or Time magazine or what-not. And as much as I like Time magazine, it's not a peer-reviewed scientific journal =3

Someone I know in rl actually vehemently said that SUVs cost less than hybrid cars in the long run. What the... I don't know which TV "study" gave them that idea.

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Re: superstition
[info]_lile
2008-04-04 03:52 am UTC (link)
oh my dog naturally has 3 whiskers. according to my dad 2 means clever and 1 means king. he always gets rid of two or one when they grow back in.

Well, it's easy for journalists to skew real scientific results in a way that makes something seem worse than it really is, and I don't know, some studies are just really trite and poorly made. I don't think I'll ever be the type of person who'll get all my information from a scientific journal and just leave it to wikipedia, even with the awareness of its unreliability.

But yeah, cognitive dissonance and all that. :/ People will tend to lean towards anything that benefits their lifestyles and beliefs. It's much easier to try to convince other people, than to go through the hardships of changing yourself.

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[info]mordyn4
2008-04-02 04:48 pm UTC (link)
AH! resource!flist. :D

Thank you. I sort of knew half of this, but to hear it put so plainly clarifies a few things, especially the different types.

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[info]lilian_cho
2008-04-02 08:45 pm UTC (link)
You're welcome, glad it was helpful instead of muddying =D

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